EVE Online

CCP Industry Stream Summary & Liveblog

I liveblogged the CCP industry change stream that just happened for my alliance (heyyy Dead Terrorists), and thought I'd share it with the community too. I tried to make it more readable, but Reddit completely killed my formatting, so, sorry. Timestamps during bits I thought people might want to look up the stream on. Enjoy otherwise. Sorry if I used the wrong flair.

<17:03 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
I'll be tl;dr'ing in here. Stream is at: https://www.twitch.tv/ccp

<17:03 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Present: CSM Kenneth Feld, CCP Psych, CCP Rattati, Dr Spodumain, CCP Swift

Background, Ship Tiers, Rationale for Changes

<17:03 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Short story about how the changes came to be:
"We know what we're doing" this quote is going to go down in history
Goes back all the way to moon mining changes, this has been planned
Trying to restructure foundations of industry
"We looked into what the game has – tech levels, meta groups, things that have existed for many many years. We tried to define them clearer… and really couldn't."
Months of work, "20 years of this", it has piled up – it needs to make sense to them and to players (new and old alike)
Need to use what they have and work around it. Need to differentiate tech 1/tech 2/tech 3, but also faction, pirate, and trig ships.
"Things are not as clear as they should"

<17:05 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Groupings image

<17:06 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Titans are considered tech 1, and that doesn't make sense. It shouldn't be as simple "
There needs to be a progression in all the groupings
"For now, the grouping is internal" – and that's part of the equation too
"You get many many many combinations <...> and that's where the new tiering system "

Tierings image

<17:08 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"This is not complete" but shows you that there's a way to break it all down (and is just an example of how the previous groupings cam be combined)
A lot of these ships don't exist yet, but could happen. Important to recognize that this also means a lot of them probably won’t happen. Sorry for your Faction T3 titans.
"Potential mapping of manufacturing progression"
"We have the foundation in place that would make sense"

<17:09 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Components image

<17:09 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Control points" – ships needing to be normalized in each group and ways to adjust them
This is the same data as the Excel sheet that was previously released, but it's not complete – meant to be an example comparing the groups.
There are specific components that they can tweak to adjust different tiers of ships.
Kenneth Feld – you used to be able to easily make titans, they're just very big frigates. This adds stuff to T1 faction, battleships, capitals, then supercapitals. You could measure ships in multiples of other ships before, in fact.
"Instead of having to spend 2 years to rewrite the industry underlying everything, you can tweak 1 or 2 items to adjust the pricing, availability, drop rates, or whatever to affect "
This de-couples any given tier from other tiers. This is good – the example given was that when minerals were super easy to get, it made everything else also be super cheap to get. Then when minerals in nullsec got nerfed, BC prices went through the roof.
(Acknowledges that no one wants to go back to that)
Addresses the concerns of "I used to build my battleship in highsec and now I can't" – megacyte and zydrine is only available from nullsec, and is imported into Jita, it works the same way now.
If you want to be vertically-integrated, you'll have to venture out a bit.
"All and all, that's good for the game as it spreads more people out"
Nothing new is being added, it's all available. Gives an example of R4 moon goo now being valuable.
"All very easy to do, all low-level type activities that are new-player friendly"
"The more you diversify the portfolio of , the "

<17:15 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Rattati – "We created a lot of new opportunities for new players", like trit all the way up to BCs; there's new value/wealth generation opportunities.
They're building out new career paths and hopefully new opportunities for new players – e.g. going from low-level gas to high-level gas
Swift – trying to build progression, rather than trying to max skills just so they can build T1, train a whole bunch of skills, get to T2. Now they can make stuff along the way.
Rattati – "We expect prices to be very volatile for the next 3 to 6 months while things pan out", they're keeping an eye on the changes so they can inject or take away materials if needed.
Swift finds it funny people are speculating, acknowledges that a lot of these won't pan out.
Rattati has said that they will inject resources if needed if there are shortages.
Psych – They're trying to anticipate where the bottlenecks are and address them.
"This demonstrates the way we're moving forward with this " and will also apply to other ores
Rattati – PvPers are used to rapid-fire changes, industry players, less so.
"If I'm to be honest, we should have been doing more iteration of things"
Focus going from resources -> industry, early work on resources was to get things in place, i.e. mineral redistribution

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<17:19 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
This is essentially industry redistribution for what can be made in lowsec, hisec.
Next step – in-station industry, reprocessing and manufacturing
"Don't worry, this isn't near-term, it's mid-term"
Want to fix the game "one-step at a time, from the source"
Chat is calling this "Kenneth Industry", lol
Swift – "some things become very apparent " – mykoseracin gas now being used for more than just boosters

R4 Moons and Gas

<17:22 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Psych – R4 moons should be way more important, not just slightly
"We're delivering on the promise we made, back in March about a year ago"
Rattati – "We knew that we were diminishing moon value at the time. We knew wormholers were unhappy about it. That's why we told them not to get rid of the athanors and rigs. It took a bit of time, but ."
Dr Spod – " it was a real kick in the teeth when the moons changed"

<17:24 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
It's going to come back, "because everyone needs battleships, right?!" (is he trying to convince us or himself?)
They're acknowledging that there's a lot of unhappiness now.
Kenneth is laughing that nullseccers were saying they had to go to highsec to mine trit (3.6bil), and now trit for titans have dropped to 600mil, and now they need wormhole space
"Next they're going to have to lowsec space"
"Until , it's going to be industry chaos"

<17:26 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Swift – "there's a lot changing to the institutional knowledge of what industry is"
There's a huge shakeup of that happening now, so now new players have a chance to put a foot in the door
"There's more inputs to look at", and he seems happy that people's spreadsheets are broken to give new players a chance

<17:27 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Rattati – "It's going to be hard to industrialize ", and it'll be hard to scale (thankfully)
Dovetails from another CSM conversation of "how do you introduce a hard currency without having to manufacture it"

<17:28 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth – all the Fullerenes are in C1-C6
You don't need to go evict Hard Knocks, you can just daytrip into a shattered, huff, and make isk for your corp that day
(The number of times "wormhole" has been mentioned is surprising, and I'm happy they're giving us some love)
Swift – they're happy that lower-end sites and wormholes in general have more opportunity for isk without needing to do a full dread or subcap krab fleet in high-class
Rattati – hinted that there's now a new opportunity for a ship type to compress gas
"Everything here has two three four five new opportunities "
He uses the snipping tool to copy and paste snippets from the Eve Forum to his planning doc


<17:30 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Questions from the chat and forums now

<17:31 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"How will insurance work after all these changes?"
Kenneth – insurance is tied to the base ship cost, 30 day sliding window of mineral prices, will automatically recalculate day-by-day based on that
Psych – will neither confirm nor deny what Kenneth just said
Swift – insurance is a mystery box, and nothing changes there
Rattati – "it's not hardcoded, so don't worry about it"

<17:34 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Is there a concern that a boost to synth boosters will break stuff or make them too strong?"
Psych – 2nd degree effect that they tried to foresee (and adjust for) based on what they saw that mycoseracin prices are going to spike, but they'll be monitoring them and adjusting if need be. At 3% they wouldn't be used at all, so they tried to make the future price of it worth using "before it's too late". Seems people are excited more than concerned about that.
Rattati – they're pre-buffing synth boosters first, but there were 2 other opportunities they did not do that with. T3 Cruisers and battleships are going to be reviewed. This is in context of buffs, take this how you will. (I’m interpreting it as T3Cs and BSes getting a balance pass – possibly with buffs – in the future)
Rattati – they should be aspirational goals, and should bridge subcaps to caps.

<17:37 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"For PVP alliances and small groups in general, a lot of these guys don't have industry wings and ship them to the front lines" (editorialized question)
Kenneth – commenting that previous PL leaders would roll in their grave if they heard PL had an industry wing now.
"Jita is not the Jita it used to be years ago", what's there is scarce. The ecosystem is changing, you cannot be single-focused on PvP, you need to consider industry now too.
Dr Spod – "I hate to be the bad cop on this, but boo-hoo, get an industry wing"
Rattati – you either have your own industry, or you have a partnership. If you want to vertically-integrate, you need a big alliance or more alts.
"Ultimately, this is not a solo game and you are impacted by what people do"

<17:40 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Are these changes meant to drag people out to lowsec?"
Psych – there is no specific goal for "people need to do X Y Z", this is about building foundations for the future.
"This is a baseline that will affect balance in the more traditional sense", it'll affect how raw numbers balancing like DPS etc. are done. The more complex you move industry-wise, the more you'll need to move around, be active in the market, or have more people.
They’re not looking to specifically boost lowsec numbers. But they're watching to see what people do. They don't have explicit player residency distribution goals.

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<17:43 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Myco is going to be important to industry, are there plans for gas compression to make it easier to haul around and move about?"
Psych – "maybe?"
Dr Spod tagged along with another question of moon ore compression since R4s are even more important now
Psych – "maybe"
Kenneth – "There are capital mining changes coming up next", kinda gave a non-answer on this except "wait"
Psych – ecosystem team was "pivotal" in helping what the industry changes shook out, including ships, etc.
"We haven't really shown what happened to " (not 100% sure what he's referring to here)
Acknowledging that the mineral changes were contentious
Kenneth – they tried to stick to the build ratios for combat ships, but the other support ships didn't share that progression. CSM tried to direct some of the changes for ratios of these things, no smooth progression. (I missed some of this)

<17:47 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Swift – they don't want to make the things "that are important for baseline industry" like freighters too complex or expensive
Psych – they're phasing in the materials and BPs early with a buffer time so that the market doesn't go too nuts all at once
Rattati – they're looking to create new content, including new sites for this stuff. Can't speak to it.

<17:52 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Are the new BPs are going to be cost-prohibitive, and what's their availability?"
Kenneth – reactions will be "the normal" 10 to 15 mil ("as you would expect"), supercarrier ones will be 3 bil, the rest will be 1.5 bil. But in context, existing capital BPs are already 2 to 2.5 bil and so this is in-line. It might be pricey for battleships, but battleship BPOs are not cheap either.
He did not find out about prices until Hoboleaks updated, and he was surprised himself (but relieved?)
"Skillpoint requirements for the new BPs? Science V is a shock for some people"
Psych – "not much to talk about it", it's a natural progression, reactions are needed.
"Battleships are the last frontier before capitals", so it's appropriate.
Kenneth – the 2 weeks gives people buffer time to train the skills, buy the BPs, and build the components needed

<17:56 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"Is the praxis a T1 or faction ship?"
Psych – "that's a very interesting question", doesn't remember off-hand, but it has "very specific roles" (?), so you won't find the same resources you would find on the table.
"The praxis is an interesting ship"
Kenneth – currently to get faction ships it's easy – you get the BPC, and then you only need the minerals (to build it). Now the calculus for LP store will change as to what's more profitable and/or easy to get faction ships.

<17:59 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth – mykoserocin and cytoserocin will be added to lowsec systems and some nullsec systems (clarification from Psych, only mykoserocin for now). There should be plenty of gas available to cover the booster and new ship requirements.
They'll be monitoring it.

<18:00 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Rattati – "we are taking a look at ice" to make sure it's abundant enough, but it's not directly being looked at
Kenneth – fuel block will be in higher-demand because of the reactions
Rattati – they're looking for feedback on this. They've made mistakes on numbers before.
They've gone through the entire forum thread.

<18:02 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth pointed out that the Bellicose and Scythe somehow got lumped with combat ships for requirements and is planning to bring it up as CSM to make sure it's in-line with support ships.
Swift – "not many dev blogs come along with a 12 table Excel sheet!" acknowledging that they might have made mistakes
Rattati – there's a graphic tracking everything from source to end, it's monumental, complex, and beautiful

<18:04 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Dr Spod asking, since BSes now need fuel to produce, was it intentional to raise structure operation costs as a result of increasing fuel costs
Psych saying costs "should not increase that much"
Psych – impact on the whole ice availability should be minor, take into account ice reserves as well, but they're keeping an eye on it. It's high on their list of things to keep an eye on. They've been wanting to introduce "new features" for ice.
The intention is not to increase cost of ice.

<18:05 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Rattati – put it another way, ice (price) was not a design goal, but a market by-product of the changes
Kenneth – re: morphite usage, tech 2 is in the next phase. Kenneth shoehorned the standup fighters changes as "they've been that way since 2016". Acknowledges that T2 guns are currently basically "building a HAC"

<18:07 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Dr Spod – "When do structures get hit by this kind of change?" Caps are possibly now worth more than the structures they're docked at.
Rattati – "we're not touching structures for now, and not in the immediate structure"
"We think that they're in a pretty good place now." There's not a lot and actually less structure spam compared to before thanks to core changes.
Although with Athanors coming back online, there'll be new targets for pirates.

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Intel Tool

<18:08 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Question on the "new intel tool"
Kenneth – "it's coming, we talked about it last Thursday, it's a thing, and it's an intel tool"
Big smirk on his face.
Rattati – "we want to solve some of the difficult, long-standing issues that keep getting raised. AFK cloaking is one of those forever topics."
"We want to design our way out of it"
"We want a dynamic play-counterplay around it"
They had several ideas that went to CSM that were deemed non-viable, this is their 4th iteration of an idea.
It has "strong merit", and isn't a "just something" patch
It has strong dynamic interaction. Provides "proper escalation path" – "hopefully it's a step in the right direction rather than a single path"
There was no single obvious path to solving it.
It "taps into a couple of line items from the eco blog in December", which was their tentative rollout, and hoping they'll still hit most of them

<18:11 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth – "We don't want to reward an AFK gameplay style with another AFK gameplay style. We want the intel tool to be active and useful by people who are active to find people who are AFK."

ESS Bank Keys

<18:11 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
"What about ESS bank keys?"
Psych – "soon"
Rattati – "this is something we've been striving for, it has not been forgotten, and is in progress"
Some rough hints at ESS keys possibly being bought
Psych – the reserve bank won't work the same way as the main bank. If you have a key, you won't be able to just get everything. "It'll be… very different". Other people will be able to buy a key and access it too. Not sure if this is a confirmation that keys will be bought.
Rattati – the intent is not "one delayed mega-payment for the system owner"

Closing Thoughts

<18:14 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Swift is urging people to come forward with feedback on things they may have missed.
The team has been reading the forums basically 24/7 over the weekend, shout out to them for that!
Apparently, people on the team were messaging each other “at 3am” with ideas/thoughts and Swift was telling them to go to sleep.

<18:15 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Rattati – they know that PI is not perfect, they can't tackle it right now but they're aware of it. Same with the over-reliance on external tools for industry, but they hope to address the worst offenders in a future industry update. Won't say when or how.

<18:16 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Dr Spod – echoing some concerns from players that NPC miners have been eating entire anomalies and belts, it’s a "eat or be eaten world" in lowsec
Kenneth – currently a bug where those anoms don't respond, but they're working on it (CCP Paradox).
Rattati – it's an issue they inherited, as well as some other things (missed it) relating to how dungeons worked, but they're working on it.
Kenneth – it's old tech debt that they inherited, but they're working on it. (anyone who’s worked in software development is probably feeling a little sympathetic pain here…)
Rattati – the NPC miners should still form something integral to the universe, but they're discussing it "high and wide" still. Still need to be discussed, but they had some thoughts around NPC factions mining, building, and buying their own things – that's why the NPC fleets exist.
"That vision still is live", that's why NPC mining fleets aren’t just ripped out, there's still value in the whole idea.
Dr Spod – you don't think it's an issue, because it's just 5 ventures, but those ventures don't sleep, so there's a real impact
“Maybe those ventures should go sleep?”

<18:19 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth pushed real hard for an SDE for the external tools. Within several hours of the blog post, 2 of the largest industry sites had the numbers updated. He's also pushing for the SDE to be released before the patch hits, and "CCP has been extremely receptive to it"
Those tools should be updated in a timely fashion, and your work shouldn't be interrupted too much

<18:20 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
Kenneth and Swift are super excited for the next dev blog. No additional comments there.

<18:21 EVE TIME> Enigwolf:
They're signing off.
Jon Hallur's Below the Asteroids playing – I miss this song! Truly a classic.


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